Saturday, January 03, 2009
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- Mike Felker
- Flowery Branch, Georgia, United States
- After receiving my B.S. in Sociology, I started touring full time in a band called The Status. That consumes most of my time, but I enjoy writing and making videos whenever I can. Please feel free to email me or leave a comment if you have any questions or intelligent criticisms.
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5 comments:
Mike,
Notice that John never beholds anything in Revelation 19 to identify that "great crowd" with the one in Revelation 7. Nothing suggests that these are one and the same other than that both are "a great crowd" or large multitude.
For example, consider the words of A.T. Robertson in his New Testament Word Pictures: “This first voice (Rev 19:1, Rev 19:2) hōs phōnēn megalēn ouchlou pollou (as it were great voice of much multitude) is probably the response of the angelic host (Rev 5:11; Heb 12:22).”
Notice too that these ones aren't those who "came out of the tribulation," but they are "coming out of" it. Were they in heaven they'd already be out, would they not?
Hey I really appreciate your response, though your answer didn't exactly address the question. That is, I was interested in location rather than identity. But I feel that your answer did, however, demonstrate the true intent of my video. Let me explain.
It was designed to get people to think critically. Too often I hear JW's say things like, "The 144,000 can't be the same group as the great crowd, or else they'd be identified differently." So when you say that there is "nothing to suggest that they are the same great crowd" is in line with my intent. Because they can be referring to the same or different group, I feel this opens the door for a correct interpretation of Rev. 7.
That is, there is no reason to say something to the effect of "why would John identify one group as 144,000 and another group as a great crowd?" This is the question I hear over and over from JW's. In addition, it is the question that they build their premise on in differentiating between this so-called heavenly/earthly class.
So its sort of a word game, much like what they do with the "little flock" vs. "other sheep," when there is no reason to think that these identifications somehow prove that the two groups are separate in terms of their eternal destiny. That is, whether they are the "great crowd" or "144,000", they still share a common destiny and are referring to the same group using different terms.
For all of these reasons, I didn't explicitly say or even imply any interpretations of this verse in the video. I just asked, "where is the great crowd in Revelation 7:9?" then "where is the great crowd in Revelation 19:1?" The answer should have been extremely simple and straightforward since I wasn't even inquiring of the identity of the great crowd; simply the location of each.
So while your identification of the great crowd in 19:1 is certainly possible, I was merely trying to provoke discussion and critical thinking in making the video.
Hope that makes sense. If not, i'll try explaining it differently.
Gotcha. Well for the sake of discussing the great crowd let me point out a couple of other things.
The temple they worship in is the earthly temple. This is spoken of at Revelation 11:1 with specific reference to "those worshiping in it."
While "before the throne" is often in heaven, such is not necessarily the case. I would suggest Revelation 20:12 is earthly, though it may well be that the throne there is earthly. Probably the best example I can find of an earthly 'before the throne" is frm the Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Ex. 15:17:
Thou wilt bring them in, and plant them on the mountain of Thy sanctuary, the place which Thou hast provided before the throne of Thy glory, the house of Thy holy Shekinah, which Thou, O Lord, hast prepared, Thy sanctuary that with both hands Thou hast established.”
I would note two final points. While the great crowd is active, 'serving God day and night in his temple,' those dead are told to simply "rest" (Rev. 6:11). Further, while the great crowd has “washed their robes and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb," those who have died in God's service have merely been "given" a robe that is already "white."
Is there anything in Revelation 11 that would require a connection to the great crowd in Revelation 7? Why could it not be just as easily stated that they worship in the temple that is in heaven according to 11:19 and 14:17?
Now, I realize that "before the throne" can be interpreted according to ones reference point, but I think it is noteworthy that 7:15 states, "they are standing before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them."
I'm not claiming anything explicit here, but this just seems to be more in line of the great crowd being in heaven because of the additional qualifiers.
As far as Revelation 20:12, i'm not sure such a strong case could be made for an earthly judgement. But i'm certainly not going to rule it out as a possibility. Even if it is earthly, I don't see any connection between this and the great crowd's location in Revelation 7.
Here's my main point: wherever or whoever the 144,000 are, I simply know of no reason to separate them from the great crowd. In fact, is there anything explicit in Rev. 7 that tell us where the 144,000 are located? In fact, is there any explicit mention of a heavenly location of the 144,000?
Mike,
My point with Revelation 11:1 is that there is an earthly temple with worshipers in it contra those who claim the reference demands heaven.
11:19 and 14:17 both provide explicitly statements so to indicate they are "in heaven." No such statement is present in Revelation 7.
7:15 begins with dia touto, which literally means "because of this." What is defined in 14 provides the basis for what is introduced in 15. They are not before the throne because they have died or because they were taken into heaven, but they are because "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb." This would imply to me that any Christian washed clean by Jesus' sacrifice is counted as "before the throne."
My comments on 20:12 were general to the expression and not specific to the great crowd. I am not suggesting that the 144,000 are a distinct group of Christians, only that there is strong evidence supporting that they are here upon the earth.
Here is perhaps an easier question: When Jesus spoke of judgment was there ever an alternative to inheriting the kingdom other than death? If not, on what basis can we suggest that there would be a distinct group of Christians with such a third option held out for them? And if we cannot suggest as much, what does this tell us regarding all Christians and being born again?
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